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Machine Gun Ammo usage
So all machine guns now use +10 ammo 😡
You know, instead of making ALL weapons eventually unusable in small step by step tiny updates, may be try to actually balance their effect 🙄
Nerfs to existing mechanics only spoil them, it's like moving backwards when trying to walk ahead. You are not balancing anything, you just make weapon types unuseable, one by one, in small steps that mean nothing themselves.
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So all machine guns now use +10 ammo 😡
You know, instead of making ALL weapons eventually unusable in small step by step tiny updates, may be try to actually balance their effect 🙄
Nerfs to existing mechanics only spoil them, it's like moving backwards when trying to walk ahead. You are not balancing anything, you just make weapon types unuseable, one by one, in small steps that mean nothing themselves.
The intent is to make the ammo usage more similar to that of the 40mm. 2 shots for 1 inventory slot. At least the machine gun ammo is cheaper than the 40mm and is easily found in boxes. I don't understand the problem here. This was a more creative nerf... They didn't reduce the range, increase the AP cost, or reduce the damage.
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The intent is to make the ammo usage more similar to that of the 40mm. 2 shots for 1 inventory slot. At least the machine gun ammo is cheaper than the 40mm and is easily found in boxes. I don't understand the problem here. This was a more creative nerf... They didn't reduce the range, increase the AP cost, or reduce the damage.
actually they just reduced the range not to long ago. now it is defenatly way more effective to use a sniper then a machine gun. machine guns have such a wide range of damage and usually end up doing the lower amount. they should increase the lower damage on all machine guns instead of just nerfing and nerfing them until there useless, like they are now.
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yes range was reduced like East said. this is what i meant - step by step tiny updates. I am not commenting the intent, but in the aspect of result what i see is that certain weapons simply lose usability from update to update creating a favour towards other weapons. And as result in next updates the other weapons sequentially weakened as well.. all in all it's like watching EVERYthing regress instead of progressing.
Why do machine guns need to be like the 40mm using weapons? really what sence does that make? It's a different type of weapon with a completely different use advantages and disadvantages. You can't even remotely compare one to the other, and trying to line them up together is bluntly ineffective.
40mm using weapons have a problem? fix it, don't adjust everything around it.
And honestly. I might not write often for the obvious reasons, but i do read other posts and, Chicken, you often "don't understand what the problem is"... perhaps you should try looking into what people say or try experience it for yourself, because what might look black on white on paper is not quite that in practice, and staff replies these are nothing but ignoring the issues raised by players.
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aff 20ammo this kinda ruins my build cuase my m60 dude is my doctor and i can carry 9 meds ,armour ,2 weapons,and 2 ammo and i mostly run out of ammo in a mega with this update ima have to take 3 ~ 5 stacks of ammo :S
sniper at this moment is way better than machine guns people that r not cashers cant afford to reset perks and they have to go with the build they choose + u guys dont even think about ur users i think its all about money here
why wont u do resets ? if its not our fualt u guys do updates
p.s before u say "were trying to make the game better or something" why did u realease the game in the first place and not w8 till u finish every weapon , perk etc..
this is like my 5th account :S cuase of updates and no reset
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Ah, you weren't clear about talking about ALL the nerfs as a whole... I thought you were discussing the ammo update only.
What I meant about the 40mm was that it is another ammo type that is only 2 shots per inventory slot, just like the machine gun ammo now. I wasn't comparing the guns, I was comparing the ammo inventory. It just so happens to be the same number of shots when that ammo is used up. The intent wasn't to make it the SAME as 40mm, the intent was to increase bullet usage to COINCIDENTLY be similar the 40mm usage.
I don't see how these nerfs are going backwards, when all we are doing is balancing weapons. Obviously we can't keep increasing its power, or in this case, we are not going to increase all the other weapons just so the machine guns are balanced.
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Milkors (the gun that uses 40mm) does way more dmg per 2 shots then 2 M60 shots, why try to make the machine guns like milkors? why not just make all other guns beable to only get 2 shots per box of ammo while your at it and claim some other stupid reason?
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Now who's comparing the 2 guns? lol, talking to you is like trying to reason with a pig. It's called making a creative difference between the different types of guns. How boring would it be to make all the ammo act the same, with the same usage? That's borderline to saying that all guns should act like an assault weapon and we shouldn't have any diversity whatsoever.
I can't believe it took me 234 posts to finally realize why berserker never responds to you guys...
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After reviewing the entire thread, there is not a single point here that is CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. If you don't know what this means, then look it up. We moderators need ideas and responses with factual or logical evidence to back it up. Unless I see any posted from now on, this thread will be closed.
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A few examples of constructive criticism are...
1) I feel that the inventory usage is too high for this type of gun. If we want to generate the same amount of Enkord perhaps we can try "stacking" ammo.
2) I feel that the ammo usage is too high for this type of gun. If we want to make a successful nerf to machine guns, we could try to increase the scratch rate by 5% instead.
3) I feel that the cost to this type of ammo will be too high. Perhaps we can create an all new type of ammo for some machine guns that can be hard to find, and easy and cheap to purchase. This might encourage non-cashers to simply deposit a small amount to get their cheap ammo.
...These are a few of the things that we want to hear. If you are unhappy with the current results, then post WHY, and WHAT we could possibly do to make a successful change. Moderators respond to reasonable requests and not silly complaints. Berserker might even step in and compliment you on your thoughts.
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Even since it takes more bullets now, regular bullets weight way less than 40mm so this latest change is not really a big deal.
On a side note - I am considering fixing rockets and I have 2 options:
1) Inreasing damage a little
2) Decreasing weight of rockets a little.
Which is better if you can pick one?
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Set the ammo cost of machineguns to 20 for ALL the guns (why a m60 need 20 bullets to shot and a minigun need 30? the colt need 5 bullets and the sig need 5 too to fire a shot...)
+1 range to machineguns or a bit more power to it... (i think is better add more power to it, cause u can do 1 dmg/bullet fired, without scratch, if u are unlucky and do the lowest damage)
ah, is better increase the damage of rockets a little
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Chicken, constructive criticism is good in a discussion, with you there is no discussion, it's more like talking into a wall which is pretty much what i've been doing, thus i chose to put it as i did.
The problem is obvious. It is virtually impossible to carry enouigh ammo to make this weapon useable unless your unit is 100% dedicated machine gunner. mg4 requires 5 inv slots for only 10 shots. that's 6 slots. Comparing this weapon to rocket using weapons is pointless because it isn't. Like i said. If there is a problem with launchers fix that instead of messing up everything around it. . . but of course this is going right into the wall.
Berserker - i think only the damage.
Launchers will not be equally usefull at their level unless they will be able to provide damage that fits their level of use. RPG hits for 24 on indirect hit? it's too weak, a milkor could do more for less ap. Minimum damage has to be good enough to provide damage on direct and indirect hits. High damage i think is good as it is, or even might go down to turn these weapons into a more stable item. I only see the minimum damage as an issue since direct hits do pretty high damage. Of course direct hits on launchers are a gamble that often ends up in a house corner or in your face.
This is where the difference was and i think should remain between machine guns and launchers. Launchers can shoot less, they are heavier. Their damage needs to be more stable and efficient. Damage that compensates for the weight requirement.
But machine gun ammo should go back to the way it was because machine guns (mg4) have high damage variance but are more mobile than a rocket launcher. There is absolutely no sense in trying to bring machine guns and launchers to the same state because than what's the point of having different weapons?
The weight alternative wouldn't make rocket launchers usefull i think. a rocket is still 1 per inv slot which is a bigger issue than chicken seems to understand. making amount of shots limited. Sure you'd free some perks for launcher users on account of strong back, but on the large scale the weapon would still be a low damage weapon at high skill level with a very limited amount of shots making it useless again - hence the machine guns - for the damage they do on average if their amount of shots is limited by ammo capacity they become much less useful.
it might not be obvious from playing a single 1x1, but may be 2-3 big games with a machine gun as main would help you feel it better. That weapon is not dealing enough damage to be using that much inventory space as it requires for ammo. 6 slots for weapon and ammo (10 shots) plus 1 for armor plus 2 for secondary.
And of course for none cashers it virtually beats down the whole idea of machine guns because this weapon will now consume more ammo than can be looted in none fake games over time and usage.
Edited 4 minutes later by Shtaks.
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How about since you guys keep nerfing the machine gun to make it almost useless now, you at least increase the min dmg some. i mean getting 35 damage at almost min range is awful and it happens way to often for a gun that is supposed to be better the closer you are.
As for the rockets, i would decrease the weight a little as i hear a lot of people complain how much they weigh. I dont use them myself this is just what i hear.
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How about since you guys keep nerfing the machine gun to make it almost useless now, you at least increase the min dmg some. i mean getting 35 damage at almost min range is awful and it happens way to often for a gun that is supposed to be better the closer you are.
Almost useless? Are you kidding? over a half players use machine guns, they are the most common used weapon since rockets nerf and since we removed perk requirements for Dr.Minigun perk. Especially now when we added red zone.
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I say just one post to this all, because my visited threads are mostime closed after a while. Just this i feel like the players too. Hmm like always. And a new example for the endless discussion of chances and balancing with sense or nonsense.
It just seems to me you always look for the most used weapons and nerf this by different ways in hope for reskilling and not for real balance. Its senseless to discuss with real thinkings about balance because some sniperguns of low level use this ammo too and can shoot 50 times. Bigger Sniperguns just 5 or 10 times.
BTW: Chicken, bers and co. Its really good to post answers in every thread with critics and suggestions of player like this: You are stupid, You are a monkey, you are a pig. This create good relations to your community and customers 😉 And its starts for me to get more and more funny to read your mod-discussions without sense and real arguments.
Dotn answer me because im out of this thread again because i dont want to be the reason for closing again because the discussion about is forbitten.
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BTW: Chicken, bers and co. Its really good to post answers in every thread with critics and suggestions of player like this: You are stupid, You are a monkey, you are a pig. This create good relations to your community and customers 😉 And its starts for me to get more and more funny to read your mod-discussions without sense and real arguments.
He has a point, you need to have some more constructive response to criticism. Labelling a discussion a "flamewar" and closing threads when there has been no harassment or name-calling is not really a sign of mature development!
In the end we all want a better game, so any fruitful discussion is good for getting ideas out there.
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Almost useless? Are you kidding? over a half players use machine guns, they are the most common used weapon since rockets nerf and since we removed perk requirements for Dr.Minigun perk. Especially now when we added red zone.
yes. after the 1st range nerf, it got less powerful and now with this even less. Im sure that if everyone had to start over again it wouldnt look the same as it does now with everyone using machine guns but not everyone has the money to reset there guys or the time to make a new account so they stick with what they got.
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Well, I see 4 recent improvements to the Machine Gun line, direct and indirect. They sort of offset the nerfs...
Shrinking map CLEARLY benefits the Machine Gunner.
Dropped perk requirements to unlock Machine Gunner.
New Vulcan was added to the line recently.
12 all new perks added to the line, which allow us to upgrade guns early, hit more often, hit for more damage, AND access 2 incredible unique perks. Bullet Hell is arguably the best perk in the game. And the Terminator perk which is stronger than the Right Hand of Doom perk.
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First of all - YES to what Knut and Trui said.
Shrinking map - benefits all weapons equally. In fact SIG and sniper gain from it much more. Machine gunner is less suefull than a ak47 on that map because of the limited movement ability 90% of them will be shot to bits after taking a shot on a small map with no place to hide. I have 14 ap on my mg much earlier than most people do and still have that problem. AK/SIG can at least go out take a shot and hide.. MG will almost always remain stuck out and be killed. So that argument is 100% false.
Dropped perk requirement - NO.. think... it used to be 2 strong back for the mg perk... How many people use that weapon and have less than 2? and at level 20 even 3-4 strong backs. That change might affect people before level 10??? It's completely irrelevant. So this argument is let's say 90% false.
Like i said.. you look on paper without thinking of it in all ranges. Machine gun range reduction (with the conseuquent affect on damage on long range shots) made this weapon verry ineffective long range weapon, and a barely effective close range (due to AP cost compared to high damage variance).
The latest change with ammo increase made machine gunner unit very hard to build and limited even more the possuibilities of build for machine gunner due to the space/weight requirement. Can see example in Streetsoldier's doctor/m60 now failed combo.
In fact all the changes to rocket launchers and m60 now make the snipers the single effective long range weapon in aspects of cost/build options/efficiency in battle. Machine gun only advantage over sniper still is the possible multi hits but with such a limited amount of shots its really fluxuating now. That is a result of you staff trying to compare the machine guns to the rocket launchers that you completely ruined as evident by the low use of these weapons and the mass respec that came after the change.
So what i am saying over and over is that instead of fixing the problem at hand, you create more problems around it to make it less evident. Instead of making rocket launchers usefull you try to make machine guns as useless. What is the next step? Make snipers crap too? and then what? make ALL the weapons unuseable and create balance by making EVERYthing suck equally? Why not fix the problem with the weak weapons instead???
Rocket launchers too powerfull? increase min decrease max.. you get a useful stable damage weapon. Stabilioty of the damage is compensated by low possuible shots, high weight and high ap useage. Just think of the low amount of options for secondary weapon for an effective rocket launcher? it's really not going to be overpowered... but trying to make mg ammo behave same as 40mm by 2 shots per inv slot is not a solution, it's just creating a new problem instead of solving the old one
P.S.
Just a question. Chicken your arguments are based on what? Pure programmer theory, watching others' matches or playing for yourself? Because the higher i got in levels the less useful the machine gun became in long games with red zone.and considering i am in the low 20s now the mg is at best efficiency for me now, so it can only get worse.
Edited 10 minutes later by Shtaks.
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