Whining about mines [Archive]

Late

12-23-2008, 10:15 AM

While at the matter, may I whine about mines now? I was on the wrong end of mines there :D

I dont think mines are good for the game for these reasons:

1) Weapon type is only viable for regular shoppers: You find so little mines from boxes that the ones that do use them are forced to buy them from shops, and this makes the weapon type not accessible to all, which means unbalanced game.

2) Mines make fights boring: mine user is forced to go backwards and camp, if he hopes that someone will step on them. Only way to counter mines is have higher mines skill to spot them or just camp more in a spot where you can be sure there is no mines.

3) Mines are overpowered: 2 of my units with all tanks perks were killed from full health from stepping in a 3-mine-field. You can deploy 3 mines in one round. No other gun or weapon does 250 damage to almost 50% resist with the ap you have in one round. They also have too big explosion radius in my opinion.

CoDeRs_KnOw

12-23-2008, 05:56 PM

1) Weapon type is only viable for regular shoppers.

i agree Late
but
you are looking at "the tree"
i've been telling about "the forest" for a long time
the thing we whine about is one of their first aims

anyway, let me whine some more : ))
i am able to use beretta but i use pyhton
i ll be able to use rpg, sig and mg4 when i level up and i..
: (

btw i have 500E from tourney and i ll be able to play a few games with full gear : ) , thanks : ), it will be super (i wont kill umbrellas : )) coz if you shoot them they ll quit to cry to mods)

(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella)
(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quitter)

: )))

Dewdundency

12-23-2008, 06:12 PM

1) Weapon type is only viable for regular shoppers: You find so little mines from boxes that the ones that do use them are forced to buy them from shops, and this makes the weapon type not accessible to all, which means unbalanced game.

So is Rocket Launchers, Med packs, grenades... pick one - go get some cash already!

2) Mines make fights boring: mine user is forced to go backwards and camp, if he hopes that someone will step on them. Only way to counter mines is have higher mines skill to spot them or just camp more in a spot where you can be sure there is no mines.

We can do all sorts of things with mines. Anyone can "camp" with any spec... I remember a certain triple sniper account. Also, if you even had a SINGLE miner on your team - you pretty much have the fight in your bag, as you can use that to your advantage as well.

3) Mines are overpowered: 2 of my units with all tanks perks were killed from full health from stepping in a 3-mine-field. You can deploy 3 mines in one round. No other gun or weapon does 250 damage to almost 50% resist with the ap you have in one round. They also have too big explosion radius in my opinion.

Only if you approach them properly is it possible to do a triple mine successfully. They are extremely heavy to bring. They are risky to place if you can't get away on the same turn. They are hard to bring to the "best" spots on the field safely. If you reduce the explosion radius at all, you are effectively making "multi" mines impossible. Miners would just place a million mines every 3 cells then or something... (if the explosion radius was only 2 cells)

berserker

12-23-2008, 06:56 PM

Back in the days I also thought mines are overpowered... And then I fought astor. My pack of 3 best mines (5th ones) took less than half of the life bar from him. With all my 9 mines I haven't killed a single unit. And after that I ended up with almost naked unit with no good means to fight. That changed my mind about mines :)

Dewdundency

12-23-2008, 06:58 PM

AHHHHHHHH! - respec here i come!

Late

12-23-2008, 07:59 PM

So is Rocket Launchers, Med packs, grenades... pick one - go get some cash already!

I have cash, that is not the point. The point is I believe the creators of the game want that everyone can compete on relatively even ground. Also known as balance. Well balanced game leads to more enjoyable game for all which leads to more users whcih leads to more shopping which supports the game we play. I agree that also grenades and rocket launchers cant be a primary weapon if you dont shop regularly, but I'm not familliar enough with them to say if that matters balance-wise. You tell me.

We can do all sorts of things with mines. Anyone can "camp" with any spec... I remember a certain triple sniper account. Also, if you even had a SINGLE miner on your team - you pretty much have the fight in your bag, as you can use that to your advantage as well.

I'm not saying camping should not be allowed. You *can* camp with any weapon of course, but it is not a good game mechanic if the only way to counter it is to camp-a-lot.

Only if you approach them properly is it possible to do a triple mine successfully. They are extremely heavy to bring. They are risky to place if you can't get away on the same turn. They are hard to bring to the "best" spots on the field safely. If you reduce the explosion radius at all, you are effectively making "multi" mines impossible. Miners would just place a million mines every 3 cells then or something... (if the explosion radius was only 2 cells)

You cant really say mines are risky to set up with the 1ap they take, it's quite the opposite, in fact. If they would take 7-10 ap to set up then it would be more in line with other weapons in that matter. I think the explosive radius mines have is ridicoulsly high, and makes the problem even worse, as the mine field can be rather big which multiplies the chance of enemy walking to it.

berserker

12-23-2008, 08:19 PM

I have cash, that is not the point. The point is I believe the creators of the game want that everyone can compete on relatively even ground.

I understand that there are some builds that are extremely hard to use without pouring in cash (like doctor, grenadier, miner), and that's completely OK. The problems would arise if those builds will be better than less cash-intensive builds, but they aren't. Mines are not as good against heavy-armored tanks with good HP like in my battle vs astor example. There is always a build that counters some specific build. If not, THAT is imbalance and we fix it.

Late

12-23-2008, 08:27 PM

The problems would arise if those builds will be better than less cash-intensive builds, but they aren't.

I disagree with the bolded txt. Maybe heavy tank beats mines at level 30, but it sure doesnt work at level 20, I just found it out the hard way. Maybe it's the mid level mines that need adjusting.. But I urge you to test it some more times. I agree that it doesnt matter if you cant use all builds without cash, but I'm saying going mine route is something you cant counter with other builds. Exactly the imbalance that is not good for game.

berserker

12-23-2008, 08:32 PM

We will check it out. I guess we need more people to speak up about mines to see other points of view.

unit-x

12-24-2008, 11:15 AM

late you'll never give up will you?:)

personally, i think mines was a pretty bad choice for my units but in some cases mines really helped me out, once my unit only had mine or hands and would just have 1 punch on enemy to save my other no-ap red life unit, i picked mine instead (costed 3 ap then) and lucky for me just killed.

however starting with a mine isnt a really famous idea as i have seen, so maybe they are good or maybe they are bad, its all on you opinion.;)

chewbacca

12-25-2008, 03:43 PM

i started an acc to try out bombs and mines as starter weapon... it seems that mins are only good in certain battles with certain conditions and your knowlege of where to put mines... i hate that mines can hit you so thats the only reason im against it:cool:

nosnos

12-26-2008, 06:53 AM

late lol you mean mine man campan thats other not do?what about sniper?what he do?
if some one have rpg then he come near to you and shot or he will have one bionco and spot then shot thats not mean campan?
then we most say rpg strong then decerease it or rpg is bad?
not many players can use mine not for thats so expensive one just for it so risky and hard to use in right place and dont be killed

Late

12-27-2008, 12:07 AM

There is nothing hard in setting up a mine and then staying 4 paces away from it.

Golota

12-27-2008, 08:25 AM

Mines are great idea - in general.
And it is right - they are good in certain situations only.
More - you can defend building miner to find mines - you don't have to buy mines.

And even more - it would be great if there was a battle place which wouldn't look like new one - destroyed houses and cars, barbed-wires, dead bodies and... random planted mines or some traps in boxes :rolleyes:

TheOne

12-27-2008, 05:57 PM

Where is my thread about mines? couldn't find it:(

I concur though. Watch Jluc tournament videos, that's how he won - brings in 10's of mines, plants them, then camps.

They become less of a 1-kill hit in higher levels though.

Clownboy_Jay

12-30-2008, 01:04 AM

Being able to trap a box, and close it would be awesome, of course, a higher trap skill would still find it.

And mines are just part of war, THEY SUCK, and RULE it just depends on wich side of it your on>>

Set <<>> Set Off

=)*sets mine and moves 9AP*(=

HomeRnDrby1

12-30-2008, 05:33 AM

Yep, mines are some of the "tools" of warfare. Either you use them or you don't. It's like FPS newbies and flashbang grenades - they just hate them because they don't like how they do no damage, yet they hate getting the white-out effect from them when pros use them and regularly pwn them.

Late

12-30-2008, 08:30 AM

Yep, mines are some of the "tools" of warfare.

You miss the point. Real world mechanics dont matter in a game like this, balance does. In real world the aim of weapons is to be better than others are, while in a game you want them to be balanced so it will be interesting for all.

berserker

12-30-2008, 10:15 AM

Mines were messed up in the previous update and is fixed in this one so check back if they are still as good.

onetower

12-30-2008, 11:56 AM

i dont know that this is already fixed but maybe range of explosion is a little bit to wide ?

unit-x

12-30-2008, 11:02 PM

i dont know that this is already fixed but maybe range of explosion is a little bit to wide ?

what you expected it to be 4x2cells? lol :D:D:D

anyway, i personally agree mines could have a slight decrease in power but only by about 5 min and max dmg, i mean now my units are into mines i wouldnt want them ruined now would i? :)

darkwish

12-31-2008, 09:43 AM

i dont know that this is already fixed but maybe range of explosion is a little bit to wide ?
i also think that range is wide, i think 3 would be better :)

HomeRnDrby1

12-31-2008, 04:27 PM

I disagree... these are classified as secondary weapons, like grenades, but the enemy has to find them for them to detonate. Grenades you pull the pin and chuck them. That and some grenades are more powerful than mines (flashbangs and stun grenades anyone?).

darkwish

12-31-2008, 05:07 PM

I disagree... these are classified as secondary weapons, like grenades, but the enemy has to find them for them to detonate.
ok, look:
F1 Frag Damage=33-82, Expl.r.=3
S.Mi.35 Damage=50-82 Expl.r.=4
so, mines:grenades=2:0
but the enemy has to find them for them to detonate. Grenades you pull the pin and chuck them. That and some grenades are more powerful than mines
Granades have dispersion. Being blined you have very small chance to hit with grenade, but mine will ever injure 100%.
mines:grenades=3:1
(flashbangs and stun grenades anyone?).
in future mines also will be with stun, camera and other
mines:grenades=4:2 :)

+you can activate >1 mine due to expl.radius
+to plant mine you need 1 ap, and 6 to drop grenade :)

Late

12-31-2008, 05:09 PM

.. are more powerful than mines

Wrong, nothing is more powerful than mines when you compare raw damage to ap they use. And especially if you remember they do a big area damage. If you encounter an enemy close, you can easily kill it with one unit setting 3 to 4 mines, and walk away. No other weapon type can do that.

Dewdundency

12-31-2008, 05:18 PM

darkwish

12-31-2008, 05:24 PM

Are we forgetting that mines are useless and can often BACKFIRE if opponents are miners - and mines cannot be thrown therefore we dont know if opponents will trip them or not... grenades can be guaranteed as long as you wait to throw...
yes, but there are a lot of people who dont use 11-12 perks and all skills for mines. and much more people, who dont use mines at all.

unit-x

12-31-2008, 05:24 PM

remember this everybody > hardly ANYBODY ive played (thats mostly good people BTW :)) used mines, their really unpopular so i guess if you ever face a miner your just real unlucky :p

anyway, perhaps bers could remove the *reducion to ap usage for mines*, will that work? then everybody has to always use 3 ap to set mines and so they may be less popular but at least they wont be super weapons!

after all quite a common tactic to use is mines to shoot hidden enemies, i should know i do it all the time ^^ :)

Late

12-31-2008, 05:38 PM

we dont know if opponents will trip them or not... grenades can be guaranteed as long as you wait to throw...

Well maybe its just me, but I have seen many grenades miss their target but I have never seen a mine miss.

Ajax

01-01-2009, 12:15 AM

ahoy,

remember me? probably not ;-D ,Anyway Disbalance was the reason for me why i left the game , for me it wasnt mines ,Tell oyu about them later, But it was crowbars and such things what makes you look how oyu get killed with 90% of stun ,anyway back in the days when i was fighting with Fonvald who was specialised in mines always changed the game..Well its liek a crowbar once you get hit thats it watch on your death ..So what happened was he placed miens yea i was in military armor and alot of hp i lost 1 char with 340hp with 3 of his mines , and he had more.. and what killed me completley anyway ,I agree that mines are powerful in real life but hey this is a game where an Ak makes less dmg than a pistol ;-D
Take care

P.S Happy New year

Dewdundency

01-01-2009, 01:49 AM

sounds to me that somebody didn't put 3 points into stun resist (back in the day it was 20% per point too!

Also, IF, and i stress if, the mines should EVER get a nerf - I vote that they cannot be targeted by guns (but still can be exploded by friendly grenades and other explosive devices...).

Dewdundency

01-01-2009, 01:51 AM

Well maybe its just me, but I have seen many grenades miss their target but I have never seen a mine miss.

The mine "misses" are the fact that the opponent CAN avoid them. Once tripped, they cannot be avoided. Understand?

berserker

01-01-2009, 08:34 PM

I will probably decrease far damage for mines so there won't be much profit in planting clustars of mines, cause this is what ruins the game. Mines haven't been intended to be planted in clusters, and they will be planted one by one, there will be much less instant kill and much more chance to heal unit/take cover.

Dewdundency

01-01-2009, 09:07 PM

Keep the damage :( - just make the explosion radius 1 - this way, if 1 is tripped, the enemy can decide to take cover or proceed...

berserker

01-01-2009, 09:17 PM

Keep the damage :( - just make the explosion radius 1 - this way, if 1 is tripped, the enemy can decide to take cover or proceed...

I don't want to take away chain reaction effect - it's quite fun.

onetower

01-01-2009, 09:20 PM

i think better soultion will be to make range betwen planted mines greater than range of explosion - thats all, this will ommit mine cluster detonations one by one

onetower

01-01-2009, 10:53 PM

...i will not play until mines will be fixed, today i was killed by 4 normal mines in 3x1 game, and lost, which is normaly not acceptable

iam mad and sick of this mines... :(

unit-x

01-01-2009, 11:21 PM

wow, never crossed my mines how far mines have come...

perhaps mines should be weaken in dmg (not to far of course :))

i also agree to the mines B radius being to big, perhaps either shrink radius to 3 or make minimum ap to plant mine = 2 so then if someone tried to plant 3 mines in cluster it would be like this:

2ap(plant) - 2ap(steps) - 2ap(plant) - 2ap(steps) risky to continue from here as then you would not be able to escape your own mines if tripped by enemy on their turn right there :)

hope this helped out, mines are real problem i guess, and i also forgot to mention, if ya dont use mines like me (blasting yourself as a little sacrifice, but still setting it of yourself very same turn its planted which makes game way more fun :D) it does make the game pretty boring :rolleyes:

Golota

01-07-2009, 02:52 PM

As unit-x wrote - there are many solutions. As most of us agree that there IS a problem with mines, so it would be good to make some changes.
I think that one of the easiest solution to check is to increase AP required to plant a mine to 6 AP (5 for advanced miner). It could prevent overusing "chain effect" and mines would be still attractive weapon (power + range).
There could be also a special item, e.g. metal detector which could be used to detect mines even by non-miners or miners with low lvl to find higher lvl mines. In fact there is a solution already - to throw grenades... but it is a little bit too expensive and game is even less attractive than playing with "miner" like... ok, no names ;-) Such game looks like that: miner plants mines and waits, waits, waits... and time goes, goes, and goes... You know, that there are mines and it is nothing surprising and no fun any more.
Regarding metal detector - there would be also "plastic" mines, which could not be detected, but... with lower power ;-)

The more options > the longer game, and who has time this days?
Enkord please think about it, maybe there should be an option like maximum time of game. This could help to have more games in the same time... and please forgive me writing again about money... more games = more cash for you.

onetower

01-07-2009, 10:49 PM

anyway, perhaps bers could remove the *reducion to ap usage for mines*, will that work? then everybody has to always use 3 ap to set mines and so they may be less popular but at least they wont be super weapons!

...add much more weight to them....like rockets are

Dewdundency

01-07-2009, 10:56 PM

HomeRnDrby1

01-08-2009, 12:31 AM

other ideas:

1) Explosion radius of 1, and also allow 1 mine per cell (no more spacing out)

2) Unit steps on mine, but wont explode it until he steps off (this will allow him to heal before he steps if necessary, and also his teammates can move away before he does his "cripling jump"

3) Perhaps we should implement something like disallow starting games overweight - so there can be no "backpacking" of extra mines.

4) Assign damage type to mines like "trap damage" and then add a perk line for 15% mine resistance per point.

5) Or you can simply tone down the total damage per mine 15% or so seems about right :(

Where to start...

1) We already went over that... Berserker said that explosion radius of 1 wasn't going to happen.

2) That would make it almost impossible to trip the mines in the first place! They're only taking up one cell.

3) That might actually work.

4) Don't hold your breath on that one. Better off just picking the damage resistance perk.

5) I'm more inclined to increase the weight of mines rather than nerf damage. Maybe slow down the mine damage increase from skill points, but not a 15% damage nerf from the get-go.

Dewdundency

01-08-2009, 12:50 AM

Ok, thanks for the replies! One last point I want to point out... The explosion radius of 1 has been reviewed yes but not with changing the plant location limitations - if you allow side by side mines is it possible to still do a chain like berserker wants to keep :) - but in this case it is highly unlikely to get hit by 3 at once which is the magic number to kill (2 usually isn't enough to kill a healthy unit in the mid-levels)