Update 13-Feb-2009 - tweaks

[berserker]

+ new background on memorial
+ slightly increased experience bonuses for large and long battles
+ Cash Shop: low level player can't buy items that require way more higher level
+ if game is aborted due to someone's quit all other players will be notified who quit
+ Rocket Launcher skill now has no influence on grenade launcher attachments' damage but still influences it's accuracy and minimum range
+ tweaked armor and damage resistance calculation formula. Now its exactly the same as written. If it says 10% that means exactly 10% of neglected damage. Before the update 10% meant 5-10% floating resistance. We decided to completely remove floating and fuzzy formulas in armor calculations. Perk now gives 1% instad of 2% and Turtle/Shelter changed to 2/3%, however in reality armor with damage resistance perks now neglects same amount of damage like before the update and without perks it became even better. When we finalize damage resistance/armor tweaking we will drop all damage resistance and related (Turtle Shelter) perks.

[Red_Ranger]

Yes I did count armor bers. but the armor is better for everyone now. so everyone has 20% resistance, and we have what? an extra 10, and if we dont move, an extra 36.. 66% is useless. especially when other people have 20.

it used to be 10-20armor + 10-20resistance + 2.5-5 shelter
with 10ap shelter thats 45-90%. now its 66%. and other people just have more resistance. I wrote this.

[Red_Ranger]

Shelter is not finalized yet, so it might be changed, but first we want to fix armor/damage resistance before moving on to shelter.

Thats fine, and I would be happy to help with the testing. but until its finalized do you expect us to stop playing? Becuase we are forced to now, our builds are wayyy worse. mine is useless.

[astor]

Yes I did count armor bers. but the armor is better for everyone now. so everyone has 20% resistance, and we have what? an extra 10, and if we dont move, an extra 36.. 66% is useless. especially when other people have 20.

it used to be 10-20armor + 10-20resistance + 2.5-5 shelter
with 10ap shelter thats 45-90%. now its 66%. and other people just have more resistance. I wrote this.

I think shelter is still overpowered:
Spent only 11 perks (yes, it is not a lot, you will see it at level 30+), if you and you opponent have similar armor and do weapon damage (improved military (30%) and 100 weapon damage for example), we have:


your damage to enemy will 100 * (100%-30%) = 70


min turtle (0 ap):
enemy damage to you will 100 * (100%-30%-10% (perks) - 0*2%) = 60
we have: 70 vs 60 (10 hp saving EACH shoot)

max turtle (12 ap):
enemy damage to you will 100 * (100%-30%-10% (perks) - 12*2%) = 36
we have: 70 vs 36 (!!! 34 hp saving EACH shoot)

max shelter (12 ap):
enemy damage to you will 100 * (100%-30%-10% (perks) - 12*3%) = 24
we have: 70 vs 24 (!!! 46 hp saving EACH shoot)


i think you will understand me

[the_one]

i whant reset to my unit to becuse you do thid twik to me now not at lvl 30+ when you say it will be good for ,
when you change perk you need to give me a chance to stay wite this perk or not ,i invest thout to my play and yes i am casher i pay bute how mach can i pay , you make me spend more and more many becusr you change stuff and not let me have the chise to levv my bield at it is or build it in an other way,
this is realy suck.
maybe i stop use many ,

[Red_Ranger]

I think shelter is still overpowered:
Spent only 11 perks (yes, it is not a lot, you will see it at level 30+), if you and you opponent have similar armor and do weapon damage (improved military (30%) and 100 weapon damage for example), we have:


your damage to enemy will 100 * (100%-30%) = 70


min turtle (0 ap):
enemy damage to you will 100 * (100%-30%-10% (perks) - 0*2%) = 60
we have: 70 vs 60 (10 hp saving EACH shoot)

max turtle (12 ap):
enemy damage to you will 100 * (100%-30%-10% (perks) - 12*2%) = 36
we have: 70 vs 36 (!!! 34 hp saving EACH shoot)

max shelter (12 ap):
enemy damage to you will 100 * (100%-30%-10% (perks) - 12*3%) = 24
we have: 70 vs 24 (!!! 46 hp saving EACH shoot)


i think you will understand me

Astor, your calculations are great except for 1 thing. with 12 ap shelter its not 70vs24. its 0vs24, because you cant shoot, you need 12 for shelter.
also consider, if your enemy put that 12AP (11 is turtle, not shelter) into regeneration, then in the first case there is no difference, in the second case its 0vs36, and even if he does hit you regenerate, and same thing with shelter.
add to that the fact that shelter is a tool, that can be countered. 1 stun grenade and your enemy is just standing there in the open like a complete dud.
shelter as i used it, was to soak damage for my friends. enemies waste their rockets on me doing little damage, and my teammates attack. your analysis was in a 1x1 match only.

Shelter is usefull when you dont attack. when you dont attack you dont do damage. how is this overpowered?
Astor, Im not level 39 yet, I cant tell you if at that level its too powerfull. I can tell you at level ~20. its not. Every friend i have keeps telling me to redo my account, because health and regeneration is better than shelter. thing is, a. I dont want to, and b. I dont have cash.

If shelter at a high level becomes too powerfull, make it less effective at higher levels. at levels before 30 (which is Everyone in gunrox aside from 15 people total) its not.

I still dont understand the need to change it. please explain this, because there are almost no shelter users. thats a fact. i havent seen 1 complaint about it in forums. if people start complaining its another thing, but they havent. The reason they havent-its not overpowered.

Now Let me ask you mods this - what new player, in his right mind, would take 1% resistance over 7health? I'm asking this honostly, regardless of wheather it is or isnt effective. the answer is No one. something in his brain is telling him that 7health is wayyy better. 10 levels after that, he will still chose health over resistance any day of the week. if shelter at level 40 suddenly becomes this big fuzz, then either nurf it for higher levels only, or wait till there are more than 2 people at that level to make the change, if it really is needed.

Now a calculation of my own -
level 30 vs level 30, with a weapon that does 100damage per shot:

70 vs 60 with 0ap shelter. ((10health saved per shot)). the person who took the 70 damage btw, has 100health and 4-5 regeneration over the shelter unit.

0vs24 with 12ap shelter. ((24health lost per shot)). he still has more health and regeneration than the shelter guy.

and once again, this is when used 1x1, not as a strategic tool, like soaking damage instead of friends (without being hit for alot), or wasting limited enemy rockets.

[astor]

i whant reset to my unit to becuse you do thid twik to me now not at lvl 30+ when you say it will be good for ,
when you change perk you need to give me a chance to stay wite this perk or not ,i invest thout to my play and yes i am casher i pay bute how mach can i pay , you make me spend more and more many becusr you change stuff and not let me have the chise to levv my bield at it is or build it in an other way,
this is realy suck.
maybe i stop use many ,

Read first post carefully:
...After tweaking of armor/damage resistance will be done we will reset damage resistance perks....

[Late]

I think shelter is still overpowered:
Spent only 11 perks (yes, it is not a lot, you will see it at level 30+), if you and you opponent have similar armor and do weapon damage

Well the point is you aren't using same guns. The enemy will have guns that do more damage and have longer range, he can see farther too or use other funny things like stun grenades etc. etc. Any 11 perks is "overpowered" if you compare it to not having those 11 perks -_-'

Part of me now just wish mines will need way more than 1 ap, assault rifles will lose longer vision range, and other perk lines lose their extra APs. Because they are equally "overpowered" abilities.

The good thing with shelter _was_ that it offered a new tactical option, you could move to an open area, without being killed. The only way I can think for attacking a camped house. Sure I can see why people think it is overpowered, because if you dont move you arent likely to get killed either, unless someone came close. But that was only if you didnt move!

ok rant over, I give up I dont think you will understand this thing anyway.

[luke1976]

If anything is overpowered at the moment its high level ugl`s two shots that cant scratch and always do 50-100+ damage :(

[Clintito]

+ changed damage resistance/armor calculation formula. Now it is exactly the same as written. This means if armor is 10% this is exactly 10% of damage that will be neglected. Before the update 10% was actually random 5%-10% but we decided to completely dispose randomness and fuzzy formulas in armor calculations. Damage Resistance perk now gives 1% instead of 2% and Turtle/Shelter are changed to 2/3%, however real efficiency of damage resistance is the same as before if taking in account perks or even better if using armor alone. After tweaking of armor/damage resistance will be done we will reset damage resistance perks.



I just wanted to say that I am disappointed that the damage perk is now weaker than it was before, yes weaker.

According to the math you say that before 10% was actually between 5% and 10% resistance. Whereas now 10% is 10%. This sounds better but now the perk only gives 1% down from 2% per perk skill.

This means that for my guy with 10 damage resistance perk skill he will now recieves a damage resist of 10%. Before the change he would have had a random damage resist of between 10% and 20% because each skill he had in this perk was worth 2%.

Would it not be better to change the damage resistance level to 1.5% per perk skill as at least it is in the middle range of where the previous random range was?

Before I love this skill, now I might do away with it completely.

[berserker]

It only makes sense if you always play naked, but I bet you don't. Therefore since armor was powered up total damage resistance is exactly the same. All the fuss about this is only due to the fact that we changed descriptions.

Back in the days we tried various armor calculations which went from extremely overpowered to almost unnoticeable, but noone noticed anything cause descriptions stayed the same, but now when we changed visual descriptions everyone started to cry out loud. Before doing so please check the actual damage IN THE GAME. If you will notice big the difference you better calm down your imagination.

And anyway there will be reset for damage resistance perks, so you will have a chance to reskill it soon.

[astor]

Astor, your calculations are great except for 1 thing. with 12 ap shelter its not 70vs24. its 0vs24, because you cant shoot, you need 12 for shelter.
Really? It depends who shoot first =)

In any case, im using shelter now and i will use it after perk reset. But after damage resistance perk reset you can spent free perk to health =)

[Red_Ranger]

No one in their right mind would pick damage resistance over health now. which makes damage resistance a completely useless and unnessisary.
with regards to what you said bers, all it means is now you will have the same resistance as before with armor without shelter. but people with no resistance perks will have better resistance now. that is called nurfing the effectiveness of damage resistance perks, plain and simple. not to mention shelter..

Its getting a bit old now guys.. We keep saying the same arguments, which are correct, and bers you keep saying the same answer, which to be honost isnt satisfying.

Please at least make the reset as fast as possible, so we can keep playing (Even though we would suck alot more now. just a bad update..completely unnessisary.)

[Red_Ranger]

Really? It depends who shoot first =)

In any case, im using shelter now and i will use it after perk reset. But after damage resistance perk reset you can spent free perk to health =)

Yeap I can. but I made this build based on shelters. that means basicly that giving me those 12 perks back wont make my build a good one, it will just not be completely useless. which sucks, Because I wont start over at level 23.

[Late]

total damage resistance is exactly the same.

You contradict yourself. On the other hand you say you only changed the description, but then you also say you did change the formula. I played 2 games right after the update and I was wondering why my scout is dying with 11 ap shelter. Then later I checked the description and realized you nerfed it in the update. So I noticed this before I read the numbers. Changing how normal armor works doesnt matter in the case with shelter because _everyone_ has armor. You still did make the shelter a lot worse and that is why people are complaining.

I do understand you want to balance the game, but now you just removed totally one option from the game, making it more boring for all. Now you need an insane amount of hp before 1% resistance is coming anywhere close with increased hitpoints perk, for example. Think about the amount of complains you took away 1ap from smg perk line, making all double snipers useless. This what you are doing, breaking synergy link with other perks and play styles.

[Red_Ranger]

Forget it Late, they have their minds set at nurfing resistance, only god knows why, and no matter how logical and right we are, they wont change it.
Honestly, saying "we changed it before and you never noticed until we wrote it down".. thats gonna make us suddenly realize that shelter is still usefull?? Wake up people, shelter sucks now!! absolutally useless..That is, unless you're level 40and doing a 1x1..

They just dont want to see that late.. I dont know why..

[berserker]

What you say is only subjective opinion which is ok until you start overemphasize on it, what we do is objective decisions made after extensive tests, you can like it or not, say it's doom and gloom, but we are not gonna change it only because several people dislaike it, because we did it to improve the game and make it better for everyone, not just you.

I've made many unpopular decisions back in the days, but in the long run they all apeared to be good, like the very old sniper rifles nerf (you probably haven't played the game then though).

[Maddawg420]

I think that Red Ranger is right, shelter in my eyes has become signifagantly weaker, and quite useless. So like what was done with the traps, i think you should give the opportunity to all players who went the shelter route to have the option to resest just them perks, the damage resist/turlte/shelter. I think that would be fair.

[Dewdundency]

When you adjust shelter, please also note that it effectively was nerfed due to yet another way to poison (most recent is the poison mine). There are no downsides to the health lines... while shelter/turtle get nerfed yet again due to their weakness to poison (the more poison options, the more likely they will be exploited).

[berserker]

So like what was done with the traps, i think you should give the opportunity to all players who went the shelter route to have the option to resest just them perks, the damage resist/turlte/shelter. I think that would be fair.

It is written in bold that such option will be presented soon. Furthermore me and astor repeated that more than once but they still keep on complaining for no clear reason. Apparently they want to have full reset which is not gonna happen.

[Late]

You said you are tweaking these things still. May I suggest that you do tell when the adjustments are done, and allow some time (hours or a day) of testing time before removing the perks from players?

In past we have seen "we changed how the perk works and removed it from all" -kinds of announcements. I mean how are people supposed to know if its still worth it? :D

[Maddawg420]

Yes bers sorry about my post, i did not read further and see that it was announced that perks will be reset, so sorry again.

[Kevlar]

I'm just wondering how a 1% damage reduction helps low level players who are getting shot with TMP's or Aksu's. It seems to me that this damage reduction is useless for low level players.

For example if I was hit with an Aksu for 30 damage.

with 1 damage resist perk I would have a damage reduction of 0.3hp
with 2 damage resist I would have a damage reduction of 0.6hp
with 3 damage resist ...... 0.9hp
with 4 damage resist....... 1.2hp
and so on

Maybe for higher levels the damage resist is a bit better but now for a low level play who plays others of his own level it seems kind of silly to even have this perk.

[berserker]

At low levels they do almost no effect even before the updated, unless you will take Turtle perk.

[Kevlar]

Before the perk maybe the defense perk wasn t so good a choice but it still had the potential to be double from where it is now.

1 perk = reduction of .3hp-.6hp
2 perk = reduction of .6hp-1.2hp
3 perk = reduction of .9hp-1.8hp
4 perk = reduction of 1.2hp-2.4hp

Potentially a lot more useful. To say it was almost useless before seems a little weak.

[berserker]

Before update actual damage resistance wasn't 2%, it was more like 1.5% average in reality.

[Clintito]

What if everything about the new tweak stayed as it is now, but with one exception.

What if:

1-5 levels in defense perk added 1% reduction
Turtle stayed the same
levels 6-10 in defense perk now added a 2% reduction
Shelter stayed the same


Then a person with 10 perks in defense would receive a total of 15% damage reduction instead of the 10% max that it is now.

It would make this perk a little stronger than it is now and a tad more practical.

[unit-x]

from what i understand, people complain about the entire dmg res line, also the entire dmg res line is being reset, perhaps some builds are going to be destroyed, i know people above lvl20 wont restart their accounts, thinking about it though 22%(improved swat, lvl22) + 10%(base) +18%(6 shelter) = 50%... is this not good enough for people? are you people only using dmg res line because it was super powered before? (yes i am agreeing with astor)

i just dont see how it has been so bad for you 20+ players... your taking half dmg per turn, tanks are supposed to have much life and def so if say you would take only just enough dmg in 1 turn to die, now you would take half dmg? your opponent is left open to massive counter attack (assuming your units are close enough) and if they had dmg res it would not benefit them.

CHANGE your play styles people, find a better playstyle to cope with these "drastic changes", its been done before with the melee nurf no?

BTW bers, you've permanent changed prices again in cash shop, are you going to do same as last time, give all people who ever spent cash get 5000EC back for apologies? :)

[berserker]

What last time are you talking about? Last time we have cash is when server was down for over a week.

[Late]

CHANGE your play styles people, find a better playstyle to cope with these "drastic changes"


This is the point here. Imagine you had a unit build for double sniping, and then they change smg -line perks so that they them give only one ap extra total, and 10 to the smg skill instead of 20. Now you would have to start the whole unit, maybe even your whole team again to get it working. People oppose to change because it will cost to them, especially the cost of _finding_ another build they like.

edit: I just tested shelter today and it (and my build) still remains useless. I'm just a free kill now.

[berserker]

But reality is, we haven't changed SMG line so your point is pure speculation. Of course even smallest change shifts whole ballance somewhere, but claiming build became useless is slyness.

[Late]

Yeah you havent changed smgs yet, but I just tried to translate the situation so that others might understand it. You have basicly removed one perkline from the game, making the game have less variation and less interesting for all. Shelter _was_ the anti-camping perk, but now in airfields such as memorial your only option is to stay in cover, peek out every turn and wait. The one who gets tired to camping first, loses.

And I dont get how I'm "sly" now, since I paid Enkord to get this build together and now its not working anymore. I dont feel like paying Enkord 60 euros more just to change my build to another one because the warranty was voided from the game I played before. So who are the sly ones making people pay more to continue playing a game they already paid for? I dont oppose paying for the game but this is just an unfair move.

[berserker]

You just upset that we removed a loophole in game ballance that allowed you to have unfair advantage over other players and that's it. Bringing over-the-head arguments won't help you. I can understand why you are so upset - you are too used to this cheating shelter but we are making this game not only for you to play but for other players with other build-ups as well. Don't be selfish, there are people that spend way more on this game, but they don't cry when we tweak the game, cause we doing tweaks not to squeeze few dimes from you, but to make the game more balanced and attractive to everyone. And I've heard enough of your arguments so don't flood in this thread. If you have any further concerns about this matter you can PM me.

[Red_Ranger]

from what i understand, people complain about the entire dmg res line, also the entire dmg res line is being reset, perhaps some builds are going to be destroyed, i know people above lvl20 wont restart their accounts, thinking about it though 22%(improved swat, lvl22) + 10%(base) +18%(6 shelter) = 50%... is this not good enough for people? are you people only using dmg res line because it was super powered before? (yes i am agreeing with astor)

i just dont see how it has been so bad for you 20+ players... your taking half dmg per turn, tanks are supposed to have much life and def so if say you would take only just enough dmg in 1 turn to die, now you would take half dmg? your opponent is left open to massive counter attack (assuming your units are close enough) and if they had dmg res it would not benefit them.



Lol the problem with us being higher levels, and you not being one, is its a different game to us, and thats something you dont understand.
First of all, a person with shelter, or a "tank", doesnt have alot of health. thats the whole point, you can either go for loads of health OR you can go for shelter.
Secondly, us "higher levels" play in mega games, IE 5x5 games. its not the basic 1x1 games that you do at level 12. it means that if I go into the open, with 230health, and take 50% of the damage, heres what happens-
first enemy spots me. second enemy double vintorezes me. 3rd enemy mg4s me and rpgs me. 4th enemy AT4s and snipes me with a berretta. 5th unit? doesnt do a thing, because im allready dead.
as for the opponant we spot being open for massive attacks.. again, you show that you dont understand this game at all. If we get close enough to an opponant, and still have AP for good shelter, that means the opponant is right near us. every decent player, and even the noob players, can spot that place even if we dont stay there, and that person would still be open for mass attacks. guess that person had it coming for playing like a complete dud..
the point in shelter as late said was a tool, like getting out of cover once in a while, and soaking damage while our teammates moved locations etc.. there is no point in not attacking, and still taking alot of damage (yes, 50 and even 40% is very high damage in megas, when you have no health its death usually), is completely useless.
The reason Astor thinks shelter is overpowered, is because astor is level 39, plays alot of 1x3, 1x4, 1x5 games, in which he has sheltered units with lots of health for him to soak damage, while his other units kill the low levels in an instant. You dont agree with astor, because you dont even understand shelter.
fact is, there is only 1 astor, and the rest of us arent level 40 with loads of health and shelters on, fighting lower levels. for us its not overpowered, its not "cheating" as bers puts it. it means we dont get to attack. it means we still take damage, and it means its a way of not camping in cover all of the time. it means low health, a need for a strategy otherwise we die, and it means that making it useless and then giving us back 12perks, is making our builds pretty darn lame, to a point where we are good players with a noobish build, and we have to make do.
Shelter might have been overpowered in 1x1s (no it wasnt, but nevermind lol), but almost no one plays 1x1 at these high levels.
and UnitX, I really love how people post about things they dont understand, because it makes it so easy to prove my point after that. so thanks. im not saying this to offend in any way, it was just a silly post and i had to respond.

Bers, I thought the whole point of this thread is to discuss the update. we are not flooding, though we are posting alot because we feel that this new update is unjustified.

In any case, can you tell us when the new update in which we can reset those perks will be? because until then we are having a hard time playing, because we are afraid to lose our items when we lose.

[onetower]

HAHAHAhahaha.... :D

Yeah turn back dmg res formula to previous one but implement faster posion bullets :cool:

[Red_Ranger]

HAHAHAhahaha.... :D

Yeah turn back dmg res formula to previous one but implement faster posion bullets :cool:

Lol I like the idea :D bers, we want poison arrows in game!! :p

[berserker]

...
First of all, a person with shelter, or a "tank", doesnt have alot of health.
...
Secondly, us "higher levels" play in mega games,
...
if I go into the open, with 230health, and take 50% of the damage, heres
...
again, you show that you dont understand this game at all. If we get close enough to an opponant, and still have AP for good shelter,
...
(yes, 50 and even 40% is very high damage in megas, when you have no health its death usually), is completely useless.


Massive battle like 4x4 and 5x5 is completely random massacre and we never ballanced this game with such a huge battles in mind and there is no point in looking into it as an argument. Ballanced games when all perks and skills come into play are 1x1 and 2x2 (3x3 max) and this is where everything tested in the first place. and vast majority of games are duels, not mega battles, so like I said you were so used to shelter cheat-features that allowed you to do some unreasonable tricks (soaking damage in mega-battles)

And if you think that tank should have low ap and use only shelter you are talking about cheating again as instead of spening all perks into HP and Regeneration line you only spend 12 perks in damage resistance/shelter.


Bers, I thought the whole point of this thread is to discuss the update. we are not flooding, though we are posting alot because we feel that this new update is unjustified.


Discussion means deiscussion, not repeating same arguments over and over. I already heard your opinion on it so stop repeating, it wont bring you anywhere.

[Clintito]

Relative to the defensive perk the hp perk is now greatly overpowered.

Why? Here's why.

If I put 10 into my hp perk I will receive an extra 70hp.

If I put 10 into my defensive perk I will receive 10% defensive bonus.

The hp perk is overpowered in this case because I would have to get hit 14 times with a AK47 at it s maximum damage of 50 before my defensive perk saves me the 70 hp that I would get for having the 10 extra hp perks.

What are the chances that I am going to be hit on the same unit 14 times before they are dead. Is it possible, sure. Is it likely, no.

If weapons less powerful than the AK47 are used in this equation you will see that the imbalance created by weakening the defensive perk gets even larger.

I m not complaining about turtle or shelter as for this argument they are irrelevant. Right now though defensive bonus is greatly underpowered relative to the hp perk.

[berserker]

Right now though defensive bonus is greatly underpowered relative to the hp perk.

So? Who said it must be even?

[Clintito]

So? Who said it must be even?

Your comment brings up more questions than answers.

Wasn't the defensive perk weakened because it was too strong and out of balance with other perks?

Your comment makes me think that balance is not so important anymore now that the hp perk is stronger. Is that really the message that you want to be sending.

The whole point in having balance is that generally the perks are more or less equally beneficial and as you would word it "even".

Why did you weaken the defensive perk in the first place if balance isn't important?

[Clintito]

So? Who said it must be even?

I pointed out what I feel to be an imbalance in the game.

I am interpreting your response as, "who cares if this imbalance exists." Is that really what you meant to say?

[berserker]

To compare those perks you have to review them from number of different point of views, but you haven't. Various perks have different usefullness in different situations and on different levels, depending on different builds, play styles, situations. Comparing those perks based on AK47 damage is silly. Read my previous posts. Spending 12 perks only instead of putting all perks in maxing out hp to gain sizeable bonus is cheating. If shelter allowed to soak damage in massibe 5x5 mega battles where you have 10-15 units shooting at you then in 1x1 battle it means invinciblility when you have only 3 units against you.

[HomeRnDrby1]

Gotta stay calm about this subject..... got.... to... stay calm..... GAHHHHHH!!!!

First of all guys... LOOK AHEAD AT THE LATER LEVELS! The damage outputs of the later weapons is higher than earlier weapons for a reason: to equalize the increasing hitpoints of each and every unit (3 HP per level gained - 5 for ever 5th level). So... there will be some instances where increasing your HP is more effective than increasing your damage resistance and vice-versa.

Early on when you are a low level and everyone is stuck using AKSUs and TMPs, the Increased Hitpoints will be more powerful than Damage Resistance as you won't have any of the special perks. The increase in hitpoints - should you stick to the hitpoints - will allow you to safely take one to two extra hits. The damage resistance at this state won't be very effective at all.

BUT... once you get to the Turtle perk... then the line becomes effective. And even more so when you get Shelter. Then you are done with that line and can start working on other areas... like the weapon mastery perks! The guy that's still working on his hitpoints is nowhere near done yet and won't have the extra firepower to use against you.

Once you get to the high level armors and weapons... the Damage Resistance perk actually trumps the Hitpoint line! Why? Because the Damage Resistance perk (along with the armor) is nullifying lots and lots of damage per attack! And the guy that was boosting HP? He's hiding in a building... trying to recover his hitpoints slowly with Regeneration...

So a brief recap:

Boosting HP is beneficial in the short-run and allows you to take a few extra hits.

Boosting Defense is beneficial in the long run and allows you to really take hit after hit when you get very high level armor.

Also, if your defense unit also happens to be a medikit lover... he's not going to get killed without a fight as he won't like to take lots of damage... but he'll recover his health very rapidly!

[Late]

If shelter allowed to soak damage in massibe 5x5 mega battles where you have 10-15 units shooting at you then in 1x1 battle it means invinciblility when you have only 3 units against you.

Yay finally one argument why you think the perk was too good.

Some things you had wrong there:

a) even if you stay in a non-cover place in a mega, it doesnt mean that all of the enemy team can shoot you. Megas are usually many small fights going on at once.

b) yes in 1v1 your unit was invincib-ish, but the point is there were 2 downsides: your unit couldnt move + poison/blind/stun really makes it much worse. Also it was still better to move to cover than take fire from enemy every turn while not moving. The non-moving thing really shows in megas, since if you stay in a non-cover position more than one turn, more and more people position themselves so that they can shoot at you.


First of all guys... LOOK AHEAD AT THE LATER LEVELS!

Yeah, damage resistance might be useful at level 40-50 now. How many players are there?


BUT... once you get to the Turtle perk... then the line becomes effective. And even more so when you get Shelter. Then you are done with that line and can start working on other areas... like the weapon mastery perks! The guy that's still working on his hitpoints is nowhere near done yet and won't have the extra firepower to use against you.


Taking turtle line doesnt mean you get to weapons faster, it means you have WORSE weapons than your opponet does.

[unit-x]

red ranger, i appreciate you've gotten further then i have in gunrox, i also appreciate your higher lvl expierirence, but looking at the big picture (in my eyes)

RPG = 80-110?
MG4 = 40-200?
SIG = 50-70?

i dont know the exact numbers, but by lvl 20 most people are expected at least 200 HP right?

in 5x5, lets say you got 3 rpgs in enemy team and 3 mg4s and 5 sigs

rpgs max dmg = (110 X 3 = 330) 52% = 165 rough))
mg4 max dmg = (200 X 3 = 600) 52% = 300 rough))
sig max dm = (70 X 5 = 350) 52% = 165 rough))

52% = 10% base + 30% shelter (10) + 22% (improved swat)

your pretty much dead from the mg4, right?

now things that make these results almost impossible:

weapon positioning
dmg range
scratches

of course, sigs will scratch lots if used at max lvl by lvl 20 right?
mg4s not likely scratch, but not likely high dmg either
rpgs is most deadly

from this calculation if you want to last at higher lvls, use rpgs

but of course, rockets is EXTREMELY difficult to train from lvl 1 unless your mega casher

as far as i know, shelter will keep you alive unless hit by at least 4 rpgs

if people at lvl 20+ only use rpgs and mg4s, its already unbalance just like that, so in other words the weapons should be nurfed, not res, but of course, rpgs were already nurfed, so from my point of view nothing is wrong with shelter as it is

also, dont say i dont understand what the problem is, i understand perfectly, i was just saying what it seemed like to me, i also feel a little offended by that wether you say it wasnt intentional or was

to bers: woops, sorry, i didnt remember every detail of last time where it was because of server dead problem, sorry again! :o

[Red_Ranger]

Hehe i'll let you in on a little secret (seriously), snipers do more damage than rpgs, mg4s and sigs. and the fact is, at level 20 everyone has at least 2 of the 3 -
some have 2 rpgs, some have 2mg4s, some have 2 snipers, and most have a variation. alot have rpg, mg4 and sniper.
Snipers have longer range, they really do more damage (the rpgs and mg4s hit multiple enemies, its why most people think they are better).
And the way you put it dude.. If with shelter I would still die, because its 5 enemies shooting me. and most have double shot snipers (not to mention criticals to balance the scratches.)
As for health units, they have ~20% damage resistance, loads of health, and will regenerate if hit. and dont forget that they wont just stand around there, they will be in cover. Sheltered units with the new update are forced to stay in cover aswell, since going into the open is practically suicide.
WHICH IS FINE!!!
Im so sick of this discussion lol, all we want now is to get our perks back and continue playing, even though we all know that our builds will be significantly worse than others (since they got the chance to plan out their builds from level 1, we need to redo a planned build with only 12 perks). but we, or at least I just dont care anymore. like bers said its the same arguments over and over again, I dont think anyone who had shelter (at level ~20) thought it was overpowered, And I've never heard anyone who didnt have shelter complaining about it.

Bers, please reset the perks. Fast!! we are having a really hard time playing for now. Im afraid even of going into megas since I dont want to ruin the game for my friends, and im not sure that I wont. and maybe time to close the discussion about shelter, since we made our points, and it wont change anything, right now its just a discussion to prove people wrong, and not to rectify the situation (but we did prove you all wrong!! :p ) so again-
Bers, please reset the perks, Fast!!

Oh and sorry you got offended then Unit-X. I just felt the previous post was rediculous. this 1 made a bit more sence.. but was still wrong :p

[unit-x]

ok arguement over :)

still i kinda lol'd at your post :D

dont take me wrong your post made sense it was just quite funny (i lose again :eek:) :D